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Naturyl 
Clinically Eccentric
UN-Administrator
Posts: 1111
(6/27/06 11:24 am)
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Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
This
is an anonymous poll. No matter which option you choose, you cannot be
harassed or ridiculed for your response, so please be totally honest.
What is your view of 9/11?
You don't have to be 100% certain to choose an option. Please choose the one that is closest to your current views.
For previous 9/11 debate here at Bikini Atoll, please see the following threads:
9/11 Loose Change
Can we believe our eyes? |
Naturyl
Clinically Eccentric
UN-Administrator
Posts: 1113
(6/27/06 11:43 am)
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
For
the record, let me state me position that LIHOP and MIHOP are very
different ideas in terms of execution, but they are basically
equivalent morally.
Whether a government deliberately and knowingly allows an attack to
take place or gets directly involved in making it happen, that
government is ethically responsible. Either way, the government in
question has commited an unspeakable act for the sake of political
expediency.
If either option 2 or option 3 really happened, we are in big trouble.
In this sense, it really doesn't matter which occurred, because either
would have extremely disturbing implications - implications which would
be similar no matter how they actually did it (passively or actively).
And that is the chief reason this topic has become foremost in my mind
lately.
IMO, the only "wrong vote" in this poll is for option 5.
Bikini Atoll: Friends, Fun, Fascism & Vitriolic Self-Loathing!Edited by: Naturyl at: 6/27/06 11:45 am
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Timmy O ymmiT
Juggernaut
Posts: 6
(6/27/06 12:19 pm)
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
I'm undecided between 2 and 3.
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Victor Danilchenko 
Psychopomp
Posts: 299
(6/27/06 12:45 pm)
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
Nat,
Quote:
For
the record, let me state me position that LIHOP and MIHOP are very
different ideas in terms of execution, but they are basically
equivalent morally. Whether a government deliberately and knowingly
allows an attack to take place or gets directly involved in making it
happen, that government is ethically responsible.
True; but there is
a difference -- the same difference as between standing by and watching
sumeone get assaulted while doing nothing, vs. actually beating up the
victim onna head with a 2x4.
Quote:
If
either option 2 or option 3 really happened, we are in big trouble. In
this sense, it really doesn't matter which occurred, because either
would have extremely disturbing implications - implications which would
be similar no matter how they actually did it (passively or actively).
The
implications of the difference are huge, Nat. We already know that our
government is morally capable of taking such actions -- it has happened
before, it will happen again. What protects us is that they have
historically shown themselves to not be competent enough to pull off
the 'Big Heist'. If they are so competent, then we live in the world of
X-Files and the basically omnipotent government which can fuck with all
of us in any which way they please in total secrecy. It would mean that
no evidence can be trusted, that no person can be trusted, etc.
Total paranoia, functionally equivalent to supernaturalism -- and problematic for the same reasons.
Ceterum censeo: veritas et libertas ultra omnis sunto.
A monster lies in wait for me,
a stew of wounds and misery,
but fiercer still, in life and limb,
is me that lies in wait for him. |
 Ree Dee Doo
BWAHAHAHAHAHA! *snort*
UN-Administrator
Posts: 2906
(6/27/06 1:04 pm)
ezSupporter
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
The stumbling point for me is this:
The SAME idiots who TOTALLY bungled the Iraq fiasco successfully pulled
off quite possibly the greatest, most complex ruse in human history?
Quote:
"It does not compute, Will Robinson."
~ Robot
I don't consider them TOO MORAL to do this - I consider them too incompetent.
EDIT: One LETTER typo fix. Sorry. 
Bikini Atoll: Friends, Fun, Fascism & Vitriolic Self-Loathing! Edited by: Ree Dee Doo at: 6/27/06 3:56 pm
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Victor Danilchenko
Psychopomp
Posts: 304
(6/27/06 1:22 pm)
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
Exactly. 9/11 would be nearly-impossible to pull off even for a very,
very competent administration, but the Bush cabal are fucking
incompetent fools. Ceterum censeo: veritas et libertas ultra omnis sunto.
A monster lies in wait for me,
a stew of wounds and misery,
but fiercer still, in life and limb,
is me that lies in wait for him. |
Naturyl
Clinically Eccentric
UN-Administrator
Posts: 1119
(6/27/06 1:22 pm)
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
The
"too incompetent" issue has been debated in previous threads. I won't
address it again, except to point out that is there is a conspiracy,
it's not holding together well at all. That "it would come out"
argument is totally silly to me, because it IS coming out all over the
place, left and right. The internet is full of it, and it's starting to
invade the mainstream media as well.
Quote:
True;
but there is a difference -- the same difference as between standing by
and watching sumeone get assaulted while doing nothing, vs. actually
beating up the victim onna head with a 2x4.
I
think this analogy is flawed. Presumably, the bystander did not
actively desire the victim to get assualted, and did not plan to be
standing right there when it happened for his own advantage - but
that's the truth of the LIHOP scenario.
Bikini Atoll: Friends, Fun, Fascism & Vitriolic Self-Loathing! |
Ducky M 
A true Duck's Duck
Posts: 151
(6/27/06 3:15 pm)
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
I
think what is really behind all collapsing buildings is a sinister
force called Gravity which is always conspiring to send the inhabitants
of buildings to their graves. 
Every TIHMPPP we author may reveal our maturity
... or our insecurity. The choice is always ours. 
Edited by: Ducky M at: 6/27/06 3:16 pm
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Philosophaster
Babbling Mammal
UN-Administrator
Posts: 1000
(6/27/06 3:18 pm)
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
Last I checked, no one disputes that gravity had a hand in what happened on 9/11. 
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Ducky M
A true Duck's Duck
Posts: 152
(6/27/06 4:48 pm)
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
Gravity also keeps us from lifting ourselves up by pulling on our own bootstraps.
Instead, we should give Levity a chance to pull us up by dropping all attempts to prove that we're better than anybody else.
All "men" are created equal. 
Every TIHMPPP we author may reveal our maturity
... or our insecurity. The choice is always ours.
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Naturyl
Clinically Eccentric
UN-Administrator
Posts: 1124
(6/27/06 6:05 pm)
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
Yeah. The thing is, gravity usually makes buildings fall over, not
straight down into their own footprints. This fact is what keeps
professional demolition companies in business.
Those companies may soon be out of business, however, now that we have
made the monumental discovery that dumping kerosene or diesel fuel into
skyscrapers can trigger a series of events that knocks them down.
Bikini Atoll: Friends, Fun, Fascism & Vitriolic Self-Loathing! |
Victor Danilchenko
Psychopomp
Posts: 307
(6/27/06 6:21 pm)
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
Nat,
Quote:
The
"too incompetent" issue has been debated in previous threads. I won't
address it again, except to point out that is there is a conspiracy,
it's not holding together well at all. That "it would come out"
argument is totally silly to me, because it IS coming out all over the
place, left and right. The internet is full of it, and it's starting to
invade the mainstream media as well.
Oh indeed? Show me any mainstream publications which are going with the MIHOP hypothesis.
The "it's about to be picked up by the mainstream media" thing has been
around forever. it usually doesn't happen. Let me know if it does,
though.
Besides, we already hashed out the conspiracy secrecy issue. You know
that it's not the secondary evidence that I am talking about. There is
a big difference between someone guessing that there may have been
explosions and thermite, and someone coming out and saying "I was told
to misreport the flight pattern of a given airplane", for example.
Quote:
I
think this analogy is flawed. Presumably, the bystander did not
actively desire the victim to get assualted, and did not plan to be
standing right there when it happened for his own advantage - but
that's the truth of the LIHOP scenario.
And
what if this malicious bystander is standing there, waiting to go
through the victim's pockets when the victim is unconscious? That is
still not morally equivalent to actually beating someone up yourself. Ceterum censeo: veritas et libertas ultra omnis sunto.
A monster lies in wait for me,
a stew of wounds and misery,
but fiercer still, in life and limb,
is me that lies in wait for him. |
Naturyl
Clinically Eccentric
UN-Administrator
Posts: 1126
(6/27/06 6:29 pm)
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
Quote:
Oh indeed? Show me any mainstream publications which are going with the MIHOP hypothesis.
The "it's about to be picked up by the mainstream media" thing has been
around forever. it usually doesn't happen. Let me know if it does,
though.
Oh,
that's not what I meant. As far as I know, no mainstream media are
advocating MIHOP. I meant that they are starting to give MIHOP
advocates airtime, and not always for obvious laugh-along "hit pieces,"
either. Steven Jones has been on a few shows - Tucker Carlson tried to
make an ass of him and made one of himself instead. His other
appearnaces have met with better treatment. There's also Charlie Sheen,
who was treated pretty well by Jimmy Kimmel and others, although he is
taking a lot of irrelavant ad hominem abuse in the press.
Quote:
Besides,
we already hashed out the conspiracy secrecy issue. You know that it's
not the secondary evidence that I am talking about. There is a big
difference between someone guessing that there may have been explosions
and thermite, and someone coming out and saying "I was told to
misreport the flight pattern of a given airplane", for example.
Yeah.
And we've also been through the power of threats to kill people and
their whole families. And the issue of how few people would know
anything more than they needed to know anyway. And the issue of how few
would actually have to be consciously involved.
Quote:
And
what if this malicious bystander is standing there, waiting to go
through the victim's pockets when the victim is unconscious? That is
still not morally equivalent to actually beating someone up yourself.
Perhaps not exactly, but as they say, it's close enough for government work.
Bikini Atoll: Friends, Fun, Fascism & Vitriolic Self-Loathing! |
RoryJarrah 
Allah-hu Akbar!
Posts: 867
(6/27/06 7:41 pm)
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
Wow. 2/3rds (so far) think the government is not innocent. That's kind of impressive.
----------------
You can't take the skies from me.
Allah-hu Akbar! |
Naturyl
Clinically Eccentric
UN-Administrator
Posts: 1129
(6/27/06 7:54 pm)
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
Yeah. And there are 4 MIHOPers, which I did not expect. I voted MIHOP,
and I presume Philosophaster and Dan Rowden did as well. I have no idea
who the additional vote could be.
Bikini Atoll: Friends, Fun, Fascism & Vitriolic Self-Loathing! |
Naturyl
Clinically Eccentric
UN-Administrator
Posts: 1130
(6/27/06 7:55 pm)
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
Heh... and as I was writing, an additional MIHOP vote came in. There
are now 5, and MIHOP is leading the poll. This is surprising, to say
the least.
Bikini Atoll: Friends, Fun, Fascism & Vitriolic Self-Loathing! |
Ducky M
A true Duck's Duck
Posts: 153
(6/27/06 8:45 pm)
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
Yeah. That's the way to reach a scientific conclusion - poll everybody, and the majority wins.
The majority is also in favor of teaching ID in science classes in
addition to evolution, as an interim step towards the teaching of
creationism instead of evolution. The Tinfoil Hat Club membership keeps growing. 
Every TIHMPPP we author may reveal our maturity
... or our insecurity. The choice is always ours.
Edited by: Ducky M at: 6/27/06 8:54 pm
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Ducky M
A true Duck's Duck
Posts: 154
(6/27/06 8:51 pm)
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
The
American public should demand that Congress immediately repeal the Law
of Gravity on the grounds that it constitutes cruel and unusual
punishment.
Ridiculous, you say? No more so than Bush repealing the Law of Global Warming. 
Every TIHMPPP we author may reveal our maturity
... or our insecurity. The choice is always ours.
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Naturyl
Clinically Eccentric
UN-Administrator
Posts: 1134
(6/27/06 8:55 pm)
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
That's not what this is about, Duckman. Are you officially joining the
club of "people who think Nat learned nothing from 4 years of running
one of the Internet's leading critical thought forums?" If so, here's
your membership card - the ranks of short-memory dipshits like yourself
are growing.
Rather, I started this poll for my own purposes - specifically, to see
if my efforts were having any effect on the audience. I will wait for
further results to draw any conclusions from the data, although thus
far, the results suggest that I have not been totally wasting my time.
[excessively mean section removed by author]
Bikini Atoll: Friends, Fun, Fascism & Vitriolic Self-Loathing!Edited by: Naturyl at: 6/28/06 8:11 am
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Il Principe II
European Stalactite Biter
Posts: 94
(6/27/06 8:58 pm)
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
I'm
the one voting 'Don't care'. Do I really not care? Well, of course I do
care a little but I'm not interested in the truth in this case.
1) I don't want to read material the size of the New York library to get 'in' on this debate.
2) I don't want to be doubting the faith I put in the people I elect. Ignorance is bliss, in this case at least.
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Naturyl
Clinically Eccentric
UN-Administrator
Posts: 1135
(6/27/06 9:03 pm)
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Re: Bikini Atoll 9/11 Poll
I agree, Principe. Ignorance is always bliss, for us as individuals.
But our blissful ignorance has consequences. Sometimes, it gets people
killed. If you can live with that, fine. I won't look down on you. We
are all guilty of it to some extent. Personally, I like to combat it
wherever I think I reasonably can, but what people view as reasonable
is a very subjective matter.
Bikini Atoll: Friends, Fun, Fascism & Vitriolic Self-Loathing! |
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